The Online Citizen

Five Myths About Bukit Brown

March 23
12:09 2012

 

 

Wondering what's the fuss about the 8-lane highway that the Government is planning to build through the historic Bukit Brown Cemetery? Well here are 5 of the most frequently asked questions and their answers.

1. Isn’t it a good thing to destroy a part of Bukit Brown for faster roads & a residential estate? After all, the dead don’t mind and the living will benefit. How much new housing area can be created with the destruction of Bukit Brown?

Err, we’re not sure the dead don’t mind! But even if they don’t, the enormous historical, cultural, environmental value of Bukit Brown far outweighs the benefits of a four-way road that seeks to "bring relief to the increasingly congested Lornie Road" (ST, 20 Nov 2011). We believe that other creative solutions can be found to relieve traffic congestion. Furthermore, there are only 111 cars per 1,000 people* in Singapore. Why should Bukit Brown and so many other precious historical sites make way to serve this small proportion of the population? Destruction is forever.

As for the benefit of new housing, the government’s plan is to build a “future estate that spans more than 200ha – bigger than Serangoon and slated to have a mix of private and public housing. Although this will be developed only in 30 to 40 years, the new road is necessary today to bring relief to the increasingly congested Lornie Road.” While this will benefit people, we feel that the government can choose to provide more housing area by first developing many other spaces that have much less historical & cultural value compared to Bukit Brown (e.g. golf courses).

In fact, the Final Report of the Focus Group on Land Allocation submitted to the Ministry of National Development in December 2000 already calls for the preservation of green spaces and building buildings taller to make land use more efficient. The Land Transport Authority’s 2008 Land Transport Master Plan likewise advocates both making public transport, especially rail, the mode of choice for commuters and controlling vehicle population growth. Deputy Prime Minister and Finance Minister Tharman Shanmugaratnam reiterated these points in his recent 2012 Budget Speech. Preserving Bukit Brown is consistent with these goals.

*For the official figures from the Department of Statistics, Singapore, see:
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/stats/keyind.html#socind (under “Social Indicators”)
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/pubn/reference/sif2011.pdf (page 18)

 

2. The government has indicated that they will only destroy 5,000 graves. That’s only 5% of Bukit Brown. And they aren’t even the graves of “famous people”. So isn’t that ok?

Famous or ordinary, we want to symbolically honour them all as pioneers of Singapore. And we feel that this proposed destruction of 5% of Bukit Brown in 2012 is merely testing the waters of public opinion. If we do not speak up against it now, one day there will be the eventual & complete destruction of Bukit Brown, and with it, the great value of this shared historical space.

3. There is already some documentation work going on for the graves that will be destroyed. Isn’t that adequate for preserving our memories?

We thank Dr Hui Yew-Foong & his team for doing this back-breaking work of documentation. This should go on even if Bukit Brown is preserved, as the gravestones will eventually become illegible due to wear & tear. However, we believe there is a huge intangible difference between reading about Bukit Brown’s documentation in a book or museum, and having the actual sensory experience of walking in a physical space among the trees and quiet gravestones, reflecting on our shared history and culture. We want this for our children too.

4. Hardly anyone remembered Bukit Brown before the proposed destruction. Now suddenly there’s all this hype. Surely this will all die down (no pun intended)?

In our rush to study, work, earn & just keep up with this frantic pace of life, we have neglected so much of our history and culture. This wake-up call has made many Singaporeans take a trip to Bukit Brown to enjoy the scenary and appreciate its great historical and cultural value. We want to preserve this not just for Singaporeans in 2011, but for generations to come.

5. How feasible is it to preserve Bukit Brown as a heritage park or cemetary park?

We believe it is highly feasible. From Paris to Penang, London to Los Angeles, Montreal to Malacca, and many many more, cemeteries are integral to the living space of many metropolitan areas, serving as parks, heritage sites, and public spaces. Some have more than one cemetery park. If other cities can, why can’t Singapore? Here are some links to cemetery parks in cities around the world:

  1. Yanaka Cemetery, Tokyo, Japan
  2. Aoyama Cemetery, Tokyo, Japan
  3. Bukit Cina, Melaka, Malaysia
  4. Protestant Cemetery, Penang, Malaysia
  5. Los Angeles, California, USA – CemeteryTour.com, Cemetery Tours: Who's Who of Hollywood
  6. San Francisco, California, USA
  7. Quebec City, Quebec, Canada
  8. Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
  9. Atlanta, Georgia, USA
  10. Washington, DC, USA
  11. Edinburgh, Scotland, UK
  12. Berlin, Germany – Cemetery Berlin, List of Cemeteries in Berlin
  13. Moscow, Russia
  14. Vienna, Austria – Central Cemetery (Zentralfried), Touring Cemeteries of Vienna
  15. Beijing, China
  16. St. Petersburg, Russia
  17. The French Quarter, New Orleans, Louisiana, USA – New Orleans Cemeteries, Cemetries of New Orleans, Chalmette National Cemetery
  18. Hong Kong (Happy Valley) Cemetery, Hong Kong – Find a GraveHong Kong Cemetery

 

Save Singapore's Nature & Heritage. Join The Fight To Save Bukit Brown!

 

 
  • Khoo Teng Liat

    Well, Singapore has to constantly bear in mind this saying which goes something like what gaineth the man if he gains the world but loses his soul or to quote Oliver Goldsmith ( I think), ” Ill fares the land, to hastening ill a prey, when wealth accumulates and man decay”. The recent decision to license casino junket operators speaks for itself.

  • Khoo Teng Liat

    Well, Singapore has to constantly bear in mind this saying which goes something like what gaineth the man if he gains the world but loses his soul or to quote Oliver Goldsmith ( I think), ” Ill fares the land, to hastening ill a prey, when wealth accumulates and man decay”. The recent decision to license casino junket operators speaks for itself.

  • Steve Wu

    One may add the Catacombs de Paris, the underground cemetery in Paris to the list (see Wikipedia).
    Just imagine the loss to the World, had the 18th century Parisian municipal planners decided to destroy the catacombs in the process of urban redevelopment. Have we NOT learnt anything??

  • Steve Wu

    One may add the Catacombs de Paris, the underground cemetery in Paris to the list (see Wikipedia).
    Just imagine the loss to the World, had the 18th century Parisian municipal planners decided to destroy the catacombs in the process of urban redevelopment. Have we NOT learnt anything??

  • The Silent Majority

    It isn't in cemeteries that heritage resides, but how we preserve and recognise what we have inherited from our forefathers. Conservation should always be a priority, but if this comes at the expense of what the pioneers buried in the cemetery had worked so hard for – which is for a better future, then we should recognise that we need to find more pragmatic and possibly efficient ways to preserve the memory of our pioneers. There is no point in putting across an argument that has been repeated time and time again without adapting it to the change in circumstances. There is still scope for preservation – within the physical constraints of land use needs that are always there. The road is not the end of the road. Focus should be on how this can be done, rather than on old arguments that clearly haven't taken what's been said over the last few days.

  • The Silent Majority

    It isn't in cemeteries that heritage resides, but how we preserve and recognise what we have inherited from our forefathers. Conservation should always be a priority, but if this comes at the expense of what the pioneers buried in the cemetery had worked so hard for – which is for a better future, then we should recognise that we need to find more pragmatic and possibly efficient ways to preserve the memory of our pioneers. There is no point in putting across an argument that has been repeated time and time again without adapting it to the change in circumstances. There is still scope for preservation – within the physical constraints of land use needs that are always there. The road is not the end of the road. Focus should be on how this can be done, rather than on old arguments that clearly haven't taken what's been said over the last few days.

  • iGRAVEstealer

    lonie road district catered for hdb estates?
    in your dream peeps…

  • iGRAVEstealer

    lonie road district catered for hdb estates?
    in your dream peeps…

  • Barney

    Defenders of the "traffic congestion easing" arument either dont understand, or choose to ignore, the documented evidence for INDUCED DEMAND. How do you not see that the new road will FILL UP, and we'll be back to square one? Building more roads has and never will be the answer to traffic congestion. The rampant destruction of green space in Singapore is tragic, and it is a sham; infrastructure projects, needed of not, fuel GDP; the system needs to be fed.   

  • Barney

    Defenders of the "traffic congestion easing" arument either dont understand, or choose to ignore, the documented evidence for INDUCED DEMAND. How do you not see that the new road will FILL UP, and we'll be back to square one? Building more roads has and never will be the answer to traffic congestion. The rampant destruction of green space in Singapore is tragic, and it is a sham; infrastructure projects, needed of not, fuel GDP; the system needs to be fed.   

  • Barney

    Also, I forgot, add Père Lachaise Cemetery to the list. A huge plot of prime real estate in Paris, and one of the most beautiful and fascinating parks in the city.

  • Barney

    Also, I forgot, add Père Lachaise Cemetery to the list. A huge plot of prime real estate in Paris, and one of the most beautiful and fascinating parks in the city.

  • Chanel

    Futile efforts by SOS Bukit Brown because the PAP govt has already made up their mind before the announcement. The govt wants to house 6.5 million people here….i.e. many more foreigners will be invited to live, work, eat, shit and sleep here!!!

  • Chanel

    Futile efforts by SOS Bukit Brown because the PAP govt has already made up their mind before the announcement. The govt wants to house 6.5 million people here….i.e. many more foreigners will be invited to live, work, eat, shit and sleep here!!!

  • Crap

    Tan Chuan Jin didn't dare to admit, but we all know why Lornie cannot be widened. Because doing so would eat into the pristine golf courses at SICC.
     
    Who are SICC's members?? Ministers, MPs, rich bosses.

  • Crap

    Tan Chuan Jin didn't dare to admit, but we all know why Lornie cannot be widened. Because doing so would eat into the pristine golf courses at SICC.
     
    Who are SICC's members?? Ministers, MPs, rich bosses.

  • http://sggreendrinks.wordpress.com vocal Majority

    Hello Silent Majority, this is your cousin, Vocal.
    It isn't simply about conservation vs better future.
    You only talk about preservation in terms of memory and heritage
    What about conserving the environment? Global warming, bio-diversity, averting floods. 
     
    In memory of pioneer, we should be concern too about a better life. A sustainable development not one that is 'using up' our land resources. 
    I think the article and SOS Bukit Brown is 'focused' on how this can be done. They are proposing new alternatives that do not destroy 'our future' and saving it for our future generations.
     
    Why must every argument be new? If it is not addressed, shouldn't we raised it again until it is answered? 
    The majority is asking for a reasonable request to protect 'our future'.
    Destroying Bukit Brown is the last option – if others have a good idea why don't we try it first before destroying. Not about saving face. About saving our future, i think that should be the priority.  

  • http://sggreendrinks.wordpress.com vocal Majority

    Hello Silent Majority, this is your cousin, Vocal.
    It isn't simply about conservation vs better future.
    You only talk about preservation in terms of memory and heritage
    What about conserving the environment? Global warming, bio-diversity, averting floods. 
     
    In memory of pioneer, we should be concern too about a better life. A sustainable development not one that is 'using up' our land resources. 
    I think the article and SOS Bukit Brown is 'focused' on how this can be done. They are proposing new alternatives that do not destroy 'our future' and saving it for our future generations.
     
    Why must every argument be new? If it is not addressed, shouldn't we raised it again until it is answered? 
    The majority is asking for a reasonable request to protect 'our future'.
    Destroying Bukit Brown is the last option – if others have a good idea why don't we try it first before destroying. Not about saving face. About saving our future, i think that should be the priority.  

  • Socrates

    Very tiring to read the old arguments again. This article should be titled FIve Self Serving Questions and Answers About Bukit Brown. Ad nauseam.

  • Socrates

    Very tiring to read the old arguments again. This article should be titled FIve Self Serving Questions and Answers About Bukit Brown. Ad nauseam.

  • mice is nice

    what about 5 myths about building wider & more roads?
     
    1) it will be effective in alleviating traffic congestion in the long run.
     
    2) it has minimal impact of the wildlife it intrudes. can relevent authorities define minimal? they very good at playing ball games, who knows how "unique" their definition is?
     
    3) the road actually & really takes up 5% of Bukit Brown, if take up more how? what is the margin of error? how does the public calculate the amount of land used? as for the 5% of land used, is it based on actual land needed for the roads or would initial construction work need more than that? what if got big trees with its trunk intersecting the road foundation? splice the trunk? lol…
     
    4) the animals & insects will learn to cope & live with the traffic noise. human's hearing much less sensitive to that of many many animals & insects. even PAP's hearing also very sensitive to "noise" wad…
     
    5) there are no better alternative but to cut through the cemetery.
     
    land is currently being cleared east of Yishun (north of Yishun dam) where a village used to be some years back, it was once reserved for military training. just check Google Earth, slide the time slider to date 4/13/2011. got a botak patch of land that wasn't there on other dates, that is not natural deforestation, too clean…

  • mice is nice

    what about 5 myths about building wider & more roads?
     
    1) it will be effective in alleviating traffic congestion in the long run.
     
    2) it has minimal impact of the wildlife it intrudes. can relevent authorities define minimal? they very good at playing ball games, who knows how "unique" their definition is?
     
    3) the road actually & really takes up 5% of Bukit Brown, if take up more how? what is the margin of error? how does the public calculate the amount of land used? as for the 5% of land used, is it based on actual land needed for the roads or would initial construction work need more than that? what if got big trees with its trunk intersecting the road foundation? splice the trunk? lol…
     
    4) the animals & insects will learn to cope & live with the traffic noise. human's hearing much less sensitive to that of many many animals & insects. even PAP's hearing also very sensitive to "noise" wad…
     
    5) there are no better alternative but to cut through the cemetery.
     
    land is currently being cleared east of Yishun (north of Yishun dam) where a village used to be some years back, it was once reserved for military training. just check Google Earth, slide the time slider to date 4/13/2011. got a botak patch of land that wasn't there on other dates, that is not natural deforestation, too clean…

  • bluejay

    I never get these calls for preserving 'heritage'. Today we preserve this place — for how long? Tomorrow, we preserve that place, and so on. 
    If every year we preserve one site, that's one hundred sites in one hundred years. New sites today could become a 'heritage' site in fifty, hundred years. Where do we stop? Where do we find space to accommodate all these 'heritage' sites? Two, three hundred years on, more and more sites to preserve. By then we might as well move out of the country and keep it as a gigantic museum.

  • bluejay

    I never get these calls for preserving 'heritage'. Today we preserve this place — for how long? Tomorrow, we preserve that place, and so on. 
    If every year we preserve one site, that's one hundred sites in one hundred years. New sites today could become a 'heritage' site in fifty, hundred years. Where do we stop? Where do we find space to accommodate all these 'heritage' sites? Two, three hundred years on, more and more sites to preserve. By then we might as well move out of the country and keep it as a gigantic museum.

  • Noble?

    Frankly, I don't have any feelings for this cemetary. There are still other cemetaries in Choa Chu Kang and other parts of SG and we can preserve those. Don't act noble and create a mountain out of a molehill. There are other places more deserving of preservation. How many people know of Bukit Brown prior to the news of the road? Its not as if its a big and significant part of the majority of Singaporean's lives.

  • Noble?

    Frankly, I don't have any feelings for this cemetary. There are still other cemetaries in Choa Chu Kang and other parts of SG and we can preserve those. Don't act noble and create a mountain out of a molehill. There are other places more deserving of preservation. How many people know of Bukit Brown prior to the news of the road? Its not as if its a big and significant part of the majority of Singaporean's lives.

  • Socrates

    Saving BB is for our children….saving BB is for our future….I hv heard enough. Please don’t talk cock!

  • Socrates

    Saving BB is for our children….saving BB is for our future….I hv heard enough. Please don’t talk cock!

  • Damn

    This is just the start of miw scheme to get rid of BB. They start with removing 5000 and in time to come BB will disappear. In it's place will be pricey property. I don't buy the crap they'll have HDBs there! Even if they do, why must they add more residential estate to that place to stress  the already conjested roads in that area. All these done to 'Prepare for the developement in 30 to 40 years' time!!' The miw really think they'll still be in power then?! What is most feasible is to get rid of that golf course. Those agree Kee Chiu.

  • Damn

    This is just the start of miw scheme to get rid of BB. They start with removing 5000 and in time to come BB will disappear. In it's place will be pricey property. I don't buy the crap they'll have HDBs there! Even if they do, why must they add more residential estate to that place to stress  the already conjested roads in that area. All these done to 'Prepare for the developement in 30 to 40 years' time!!' The miw really think they'll still be in power then?! What is most feasible is to get rid of that golf course. Those agree Kee Chiu.

  • SG

    Honestly I don't have any 'feelings' or 'memories' reg BB. There're much more 'significant' places like the old national library which was already gave way to the 'tunnel'.
    I don't see a big issue other than ' anti-gov' here..

  • SG

    Honestly I don't have any 'feelings' or 'memories' reg BB. There're much more 'significant' places like the old national library which was already gave way to the 'tunnel'.
    I don't see a big issue other than ' anti-gov' here..

  • mice is nice

    hi Damn,
     
    i agree with you! *kee chiu*

  • mice is nice

    hi Damn,
     
    i agree with you! *kee chiu*

  • Kampong boy

    Hi Damn,

    I also “kee chiu”

  • Kampong boy

    Hi Damn,

    I also “kee chiu”

  • Roy

    I am neutral on the topic of whether to save or not to save Bukit Brown; but what I can see is that engineering workarounds are possible to avoid having to encroach onto the cemetary. So if there are so many people clamouring for the road not to be built through the cemetary due to the desire to preserve the place, why not compromise and solve the issue by using the alternative proposed engineering routes for the proposed road?

  • Roy

    I am neutral on the topic of whether to save or not to save Bukit Brown; but what I can see is that engineering workarounds are possible to avoid having to encroach onto the cemetary. So if there are so many people clamouring for the road not to be built through the cemetary due to the desire to preserve the place, why not compromise and solve the issue by using the alternative proposed engineering routes for the proposed road?

  • Smudger

    1. I believe I recently read about carbon emissions  in SG being highest in Asia.
    2. Why is the PAP hell-bent in systematically destroying every historical trace Sg stands for? There is constant complaints that the PAP and MOE say that Sgporeans have forgotten its history. Is the PAP not merely encouraging it and also advocating historical destruction?
    3. This WILL NOT (and I WILL WIN this bet if Sg Pools offered it) ease or reduce traffic congestion. PAP…please go attend Six Thinking Hats.
    4. Destruction of Bt Brown is to make way and to accomodate for more high end bungalows and residences that will help fill government coffers, and also make available more private land for exclusive sale to the exclusive elitist (they think they are elitist, but I think they are small-minded wa56ers).
    5. And penultimately, FFS…stop ruining Sg's history. Do you pencil pushing bureaucrats not remember the total annihilation of Chinatown?
    Enuff said.

  • Smudger

    1. I believe I recently read about carbon emissions  in SG being highest in Asia.
    2. Why is the PAP hell-bent in systematically destroying every historical trace Sg stands for? There is constant complaints that the PAP and MOE say that Sgporeans have forgotten its history. Is the PAP not merely encouraging it and also advocating historical destruction?
    3. This WILL NOT (and I WILL WIN this bet if Sg Pools offered it) ease or reduce traffic congestion. PAP…please go attend Six Thinking Hats.
    4. Destruction of Bt Brown is to make way and to accomodate for more high end bungalows and residences that will help fill government coffers, and also make available more private land for exclusive sale to the exclusive elitist (they think they are elitist, but I think they are small-minded wa56ers).
    5. And penultimately, FFS…stop ruining Sg's history. Do you pencil pushing bureaucrats not remember the total annihilation of Chinatown?
    Enuff said.

  • Damn

    @mice is nice
    @Kampong boy
    For once i think "kee chiu" sounds good!
    @SG
    It's exactly because we've lost the grand ol Nat'l Library back then we should not let go of BB so easily. When the miw tore down the Natl Library, voices against it was snubbed out. We've lost the building and what do we have now?! A lousy qutie-useless tunnel. What will we get if we keep quiet now, we'll have a conjested road instead of an intact BB. Root of problem is the influx of "FT" which is beyond what SG can cope. Roads, malls, public transport etc are bursting at the seams. The miw and their doomed-to-fail policies are the ones that should go, not BB!
     

  • Damn

    @mice is nice
    @Kampong boy
    For once i think "kee chiu" sounds good!
    @SG
    It's exactly because we've lost the grand ol Nat'l Library back then we should not let go of BB so easily. When the miw tore down the Natl Library, voices against it was snubbed out. We've lost the building and what do we have now?! A lousy qutie-useless tunnel. What will we get if we keep quiet now, we'll have a conjested road instead of an intact BB. Root of problem is the influx of "FT" which is beyond what SG can cope. Roads, malls, public transport etc are bursting at the seams. The miw and their doomed-to-fail policies are the ones that should go, not BB!
     

  • Crazy MIWs

    The aruguement that the dead have to make way for the living is valid ONLY IF the population has increased or is increasing naturally.  If population increase is artificial, that is, by means of easy immigration, you will find that not only the dead has to make way but the parks, the lakes, the longkangs, the childrens playgrounds, the walkways, the…. will all have to make way for the living.

  • Crazy MIWs

    The aruguement that the dead have to make way for the living is valid ONLY IF the population has increased or is increasing naturally.  If population increase is artificial, that is, by means of easy immigration, you will find that not only the dead has to make way but the parks, the lakes, the longkangs, the childrens playgrounds, the walkways, the…. will all have to make way for the living.

  • http://Website(optional) iworkhardsometimes

    Golf courses cannot be touched because they are one of the sacred cows.

  • http://Website(optional) iworkhardsometimes

    Golf courses cannot be touched because they are one of the sacred cows.

  • I am a nobody, get me out of here

    Singaporeans sacrifice a national treasure for a 8-laner that is going to score another first FOR FOREIGNERS and BY FOREIGNERS and Singaporeans are just so proud of it.  How bloody stupid can Singaporeans be?  Ai-yo-yo!!!

  • I am a nobody, get me out of here

    Singaporeans sacrifice a national treasure for a 8-laner that is going to score another first FOR FOREIGNERS and BY FOREIGNERS and Singaporeans are just so proud of it.  How bloody stupid can Singaporeans be?  Ai-yo-yo!!!

  • I am a nobody, I want to stay

    Sg is so lack of talents that Sg Govt also has to allocate large plot of land for international schools to have 5000 seat auditorium or theatre, swimming pool etc otherwise they don't stay or make it their permanent home.
     
    Instead of channelling all the money, resources (land), time and energy in attracting and retaining FTs, the Govt should be channelling all that to build up Singaporean people, it is called 'investing in our people' (quote from the honourable Chen S M).  It should also be doing all it can to attract and retain own Singaporean talents who are leaving our shores.
     
    No this is NOT politics, as a people of Sg, we are recipients of the nonsense they dish out so we have to make noise.

  • I am a nobody, I want to stay

    Sg is so lack of talents that Sg Govt also has to allocate large plot of land for international schools to have 5000 seat auditorium or theatre, swimming pool etc otherwise they don't stay or make it their permanent home.
     
    Instead of channelling all the money, resources (land), time and energy in attracting and retaining FTs, the Govt should be channelling all that to build up Singaporean people, it is called 'investing in our people' (quote from the honourable Chen S M).  It should also be doing all it can to attract and retain own Singaporean talents who are leaving our shores.
     
    No this is NOT politics, as a people of Sg, we are recipients of the nonsense they dish out so we have to make noise.

  • http://tanchoonhongcreative.blogspot.com Tan Choon Hong

     
    When I was a young man, I came face to face with an unwrapped Egyptian mummy in a glass showcase in the London Museum. Despite separated by several millennia in time, I could sense the humanity of this forlorn figure who once held the power of life and death with a wave of his finger or a twitch of his face. 
     
    Similarly, without the tombs, carvings and other artifacts in their unmolested state at Bukit Brown, we can never truly connect with the lives of the pioneers of Singapore, who as coolies or towkays, laid the foundation upon which later generations including our own help build this thriving metropolis. 
     
    For too long we have let a powerful few run every aspect of our lives. Now is the time to take control and defend our heritage for ourselves and the generations yet to be born.

  • http://tanchoonhongcreative.blogspot.com Tan Choon Hong

     
    When I was a young man, I came face to face with an unwrapped Egyptian mummy in a glass showcase in the London Museum. Despite separated by several millennia in time, I could sense the humanity of this forlorn figure who once held the power of life and death with a wave of his finger or a twitch of his face. 
     
    Similarly, without the tombs, carvings and other artifacts in their unmolested state at Bukit Brown, we can never truly connect with the lives of the pioneers of Singapore, who as coolies or towkays, laid the foundation upon which later generations including our own help build this thriving metropolis. 
     
    For too long we have let a powerful few run every aspect of our lives. Now is the time to take control and defend our heritage for ourselves and the generations yet to be born.

  • Godwin

    Haha, I am surprised no one has come up with a conspiracy theory about how the gahment consult fengshui master, master say must vut through BB to avert bad luck to PAP…
     
    I agree widening roads will just invite more cars and won't ease congestion, and I also think SG correct – it's another way to show anti-gahment sentiment. But see next time after highway complete whether these people will boycott it or not lor.

  • Godwin

    Haha, I am surprised no one has come up with a conspiracy theory about how the gahment consult fengshui master, master say must vut through BB to avert bad luck to PAP…
     
    I agree widening roads will just invite more cars and won't ease congestion, and I also think SG correct – it's another way to show anti-gahment sentiment. But see next time after highway complete whether these people will boycott it or not lor.

  • James Mok

    Very simple, just widen Lornie Road and eats into SICC. Mr. Tan, you dare not, right??? Just admit it!!!

  • James Mok

    Very simple, just widen Lornie Road and eats into SICC. Mr. Tan, you dare not, right??? Just admit it!!!

  • Crazy MIWs

    Golf club, once gone, another can be build (elsewhere). You can't replace the age old cemetary.  This is why antiques are priceless, there is only one and once gone, gone forever. 
     
    With development, other countries also can outdo Sg sooner or later. The authentic BB cemetary cannot be replicated, there is only one in the world, that is how precious it is.
     
    Boggles the mind how one can be so wreckless in decision making.

  • Crazy MIWs

    Golf club, once gone, another can be build (elsewhere). You can't replace the age old cemetary.  This is why antiques are priceless, there is only one and once gone, gone forever. 
     
    With development, other countries also can outdo Sg sooner or later. The authentic BB cemetary cannot be replicated, there is only one in the world, that is how precious it is.
     
    Boggles the mind how one can be so wreckless in decision making.

  • Crazy MIWs

    Correction:  Golf club, one gone, another can be built…..

  • Crazy MIWs

    Correction:  Golf club, one gone, another can be built…..

  • Red dust

    Qingming coming. Wondering how many here go pay respects to their own ancestors?

  • Red dust

    Qingming coming. Wondering how many here go pay respects to their own ancestors?

  • PUTHUCHEARY AVOIDED NS

     
    "Crap23 March 2012

    Tan Chuan Jin didn't dare to admit, but we all know why Lornie cannot be widened. Because doing so would eat into the pristine golf courses at SICC.
     
    Who are SICC's members?? Ministers, MPs, rich bosses.":
     
    Such a sheer waste of land at SICC. That should be released or acquired for the enjoyment of all Singaporeans or allow more highways to be built to relieve congestion all over.
    When can we start?
     
     
     

     

  • PUTHUCHEARY AVOIDED NS

     
    "Crap23 March 2012

    Tan Chuan Jin didn't dare to admit, but we all know why Lornie cannot be widened. Because doing so would eat into the pristine golf courses at SICC.
     
    Who are SICC's members?? Ministers, MPs, rich bosses.":
     
    Such a sheer waste of land at SICC. That should be released or acquired for the enjoyment of all Singaporeans or allow more highways to be built to relieve congestion all over.
    When can we start?
     
     
     

     

  • Simple Question

    if we only have 3 million people, do we need to destroy BB and other heritage sites?
    Did pap consult us on their immigration policy?
    You created all the problems, and we the people have to bear the consequences. Isn't it a raw deal?

  • Simple Question

    if we only have 3 million people, do we need to destroy BB and other heritage sites?
    Did pap consult us on their immigration policy?
    You created all the problems, and we the people have to bear the consequences. Isn't it a raw deal?

  • http://sggreendrinks.wordpress.com vocal Majority

    Judging from the comments.
    85% of Singapore's Online Citizens are not happy about building the highway for many reasons. 
    Hence, it is unpopular. 

  • http://sggreendrinks.wordpress.com vocal Majority

    Judging from the comments.
    85% of Singapore's Online Citizens are not happy about building the highway for many reasons. 
    Hence, it is unpopular. 

  • http://sggreendrinks.wordpress.com vocal Majority

    @Simple Question. 
    Good point. Actually, the land need to make space for living but that part is unclear. 
    Population already 5.18 Million last year. Our population have difficulty producing. Unless we ban condoms like chewing gum. 
    So the increase should be migration or exiles. 
     

  • http://sggreendrinks.wordpress.com vocal Majority

    @Simple Question. 
    Good point. Actually, the land need to make space for living but that part is unclear. 
    Population already 5.18 Million last year. Our population have difficulty producing. Unless we ban condoms like chewing gum. 
    So the increase should be migration or exiles. 
     

  • Daniel Ling

    Very disingenuous to use the 111 cars per 1000 PEOPLE in singapore. This suggests around 10% of the population have access to a car. I don’t think children drive. Given an average family size of 3 to 4, even given that some families own more than one, this still suggests around 30% would have access to a car. Activists often accuse the PAP and the government of using misleading statistics. Doesn’t lend them credibility when they use the same underhand tactics. Please, keep things factual when trying to fight for a cause or risk undermining yourself.

  • Daniel Ling

    Very disingenuous to use the 111 cars per 1000 PEOPLE in singapore. This suggests around 10% of the population have access to a car. I don’t think children drive. Given an average family size of 3 to 4, even given that some families own more than one, this still suggests around 30% would have access to a car. Activists often accuse the PAP and the government of using misleading statistics. Doesn’t lend them credibility when they use the same underhand tactics. Please, keep things factual when trying to fight for a cause or risk undermining yourself.

  • Singapore Doomsday Party (SDP)

    SDP is very interested about cemetaries because their doom is approaching!!!
    An ex Con and an Election fraudster helming the Doomsday Party, how to survive?

  • Singapore Doomsday Party (SDP)

    SDP is very interested about cemetaries because their doom is approaching!!!
    An ex Con and an Election fraudster helming the Doomsday Party, how to survive?

  • PAP Forever

    ” Err, we’re not sure the dead don’t mind!” the dead are dead. since the writer believes in ghosts and santas claus, there is no need to read the article any further. next, he’ll be telling me fanciful stories of heaven and hell. what a sap.

  • PAP Forever

    ” Err, we’re not sure the dead don’t mind!” the dead are dead. since the writer believes in ghosts and santas claus, there is no need to read the article any further. next, he’ll be telling me fanciful stories of heaven and hell. what a sap.

  • They think they own the country

    Action speaks louder than words. If BB is really worth fighting for, we won’t only see cyber warriors making noise online

  • They think they own the country

    Action speaks louder than words. If BB is really worth fighting for, we won’t only see cyber warriors making noise online

  • shutthefarkup

    this is shit stirring at its best. dont waste your tume and ours too
     

  • shutthefarkup

    this is shit stirring at its best. dont waste your tume and ours too
     

  • martell

    We should work towards building a park before govt converts the land into private housing.

    Interesting points made by this note:
    http://www.facebook.com/notes/unbranded-breadnbutter/the-idiosyncrasies-that-arose-from-the-bukit-brown-incident/195417107237987

  • martell

    We should work towards building a park before govt converts the land into private housing.

    Interesting points made by this note:
    http://www.facebook.com/notes/unbranded-breadnbutter/the-idiosyncrasies-that-arose-from-the-bukit-brown-incident/195417107237987

  • have respect

    //PAP Forever 24 March 2012
    ” Err, we’re not sure the dead don’t mind!” the dead are dead. since the writer believes in ghosts and santas claus, there is no need to read the article any further. next, he’ll be telling me fanciful stories of heaven and hell. what a sap.//
     
    There are respectable institutions having to to do with of faith, god & heaven, etc. Do you think they are faciful also.
     
     

  • have respect

    //PAP Forever 24 March 2012
    ” Err, we’re not sure the dead don’t mind!” the dead are dead. since the writer believes in ghosts and santas claus, there is no need to read the article any further. next, he’ll be telling me fanciful stories of heaven and hell. what a sap.//
     
    There are respectable institutions having to to do with of faith, god & heaven, etc. Do you think they are faciful also.
     
     

  • J

    Hi, 
    I agree that we ought to conserve our heritage and protect their memory. However, I'm not sure if the argument to preserve Bukit Brown "for future generations" is valid because I'm not sure how many of us valued its existence before it threatened to become completely lost in the first place.
    I agree with "The Silent Majority" that we should not preserve our pioneers' graves at the expense of the future that they fought for. Realistically, Singapore is a small country with limited land area; if we are able to physically preserve one part of Bukit Brown, or find other ways that the memory of this cultural resource can be kept alive (the internet, museums, etc.), it would be an ideal situation. There are many other, perhaps better, options to raise awareness to preserve this resource in the hearts and minds of Singaporeans, apart from insisting on physical preservation. 
    Let's be flexible in our thinking and explore new ways that we can achieve the end that we desire. 

  • J

    Hi, 
    I agree that we ought to conserve our heritage and protect their memory. However, I'm not sure if the argument to preserve Bukit Brown "for future generations" is valid because I'm not sure how many of us valued its existence before it threatened to become completely lost in the first place.
    I agree with "The Silent Majority" that we should not preserve our pioneers' graves at the expense of the future that they fought for. Realistically, Singapore is a small country with limited land area; if we are able to physically preserve one part of Bukit Brown, or find other ways that the memory of this cultural resource can be kept alive (the internet, museums, etc.), it would be an ideal situation. There are many other, perhaps better, options to raise awareness to preserve this resource in the hearts and minds of Singaporeans, apart from insisting on physical preservation. 
    Let's be flexible in our thinking and explore new ways that we can achieve the end that we desire. 

  • K

    @ J
     
    the consersation of our heritage and protect their memory is as much to do with the conservation of greenery and the surrounding nature. 
     
    singapore is small and is always limited in space. but what do we do, do you think we are doing it better by reducing the crowdedness or making it worst as far as our natural population vs the increasing no. of foreign residents goes. 
     
    what do you think. imagine & dreaming "in your hearts and minds" of owning a car by having plenty of car photographs pasted in your house. Or physically owning a car. can you see the difference. & the same applies for physical preservation against something in your heart & mind. Because when something is gone physically, it will never be the same again. slowly it will be forgotten and accepted reluctantly. what can anyone do after it has been taken away.  
     
     
     
     
     

  • K

    @ J
     
    the consersation of our heritage and protect their memory is as much to do with the conservation of greenery and the surrounding nature. 
     
    singapore is small and is always limited in space. but what do we do, do you think we are doing it better by reducing the crowdedness or making it worst as far as our natural population vs the increasing no. of foreign residents goes. 
     
    what do you think. imagine & dreaming "in your hearts and minds" of owning a car by having plenty of car photographs pasted in your house. Or physically owning a car. can you see the difference. & the same applies for physical preservation against something in your heart & mind. Because when something is gone physically, it will never be the same again. slowly it will be forgotten and accepted reluctantly. what can anyone do after it has been taken away.  
     
     
     
     
     

  • Political Mileage!!

    Don't believe a word the Singapore Doomsday Party say about social good.  Afterall, its clear they are after political mileage for themselves and have agendas such as the repeal of 377A to feed their habits of drinking from straws thru their nostrils….and such..

  • Political Mileage!!

    Don't believe a word the Singapore Doomsday Party say about social good.  Afterall, its clear they are after political mileage for themselves and have agendas such as the repeal of 377A to feed their habits of drinking from straws thru their nostrils….and such..

  • Scumbag ed

    What is all this fuss about?
    Ordinary dead in Bukit Brown? probably. Famous dead in Bishan and other cemeteries? very likely. Yet, all were cleared to make way for development.
    Please lah, go and champion other more worthwhile causes. Just let the Govt. do their work without  frivolous hindrances.

  • Scumbag ed

    What is all this fuss about?
    Ordinary dead in Bukit Brown? probably. Famous dead in Bishan and other cemeteries? very likely. Yet, all were cleared to make way for development.
    Please lah, go and champion other more worthwhile causes. Just let the Govt. do their work without  frivolous hindrances.

  • GREAT PRETENDER!!!!!!

    In Singapore, everything are bull shits. You want to solve the traffic congestion in Thomson area, just widen Lornie Road into SICC land. Mr. Tan dare not and yet he dare not admit it. He dare to offend our fore-fathers, anchestors etc but dare not offend GOD-FATHERS. What a joke??? Just admit it and do what you want to do and you don't need to do consultaion. Eventually you will also do it too.

  • GREAT PRETENDER!!!!!!

    In Singapore, everything are bull shits. You want to solve the traffic congestion in Thomson area, just widen Lornie Road into SICC land. Mr. Tan dare not and yet he dare not admit it. He dare to offend our fore-fathers, anchestors etc but dare not offend GOD-FATHERS. What a joke??? Just admit it and do what you want to do and you don't need to do consultaion. Eventually you will also do it too.

  • PAP Forever

    @have respect

    why don’t you ask these ‘respectable’ institutions what they privately think of each others’ god, faith, and heaven and hell?

    yah, have some respect. don’t insult my intelligence.

  • PAP Forever

    @have respect

    why don’t you ask these ‘respectable’ institutions what they privately think of each others’ god, faith, and heaven and hell?

    yah, have some respect. don’t insult my intelligence.

  • have respect

    //PAP Forever 24 March 2012
    why don’t you ask these ‘respectable’ institutions what they privately think of each others’ god, faith, and heaven and hell?//
     
    Ain't this all part of being human and being different with its own unique identity. It all depends on how far one likes to go. e.g race, religion, dialect, family, friends, nationality, etc, etc. Do you respect everyone the same and every issue the same like BB. 
     
    Ain't we supposed to have inter-faith harmony. Your nick says you are PAP Forever. So maintain the harmony and the sanctimonious values that certain people place for certain venues.
     
     

  • have respect

    //PAP Forever 24 March 2012
    why don’t you ask these ‘respectable’ institutions what they privately think of each others’ god, faith, and heaven and hell?//
     
    Ain't this all part of being human and being different with its own unique identity. It all depends on how far one likes to go. e.g race, religion, dialect, family, friends, nationality, etc, etc. Do you respect everyone the same and every issue the same like BB. 
     
    Ain't we supposed to have inter-faith harmony. Your nick says you are PAP Forever. So maintain the harmony and the sanctimonious values that certain people place for certain venues.
     
     

  • oms

    all hearts take out and compare are black.
    Just leave Bukit Brown alone. You can remove the dead so as the live ones can enjoy the beauty of bukit brown.

  • oms

    all hearts take out and compare are black.
    Just leave Bukit Brown alone. You can remove the dead so as the live ones can enjoy the beauty of bukit brown.

  • Brendan

    Many arguments here are about preserving history.
    Howeve, more than just the preservation of our history, BB is also a catchment area. Destroying it will have severe consequences. eg. flooding will increase triple fold. Im shocked that many people are not able to see this VERY IMPORTANT aspect given the WORLD CLASS education system we have here.

  • Brendan

    Many arguments here are about preserving history.
    Howeve, more than just the preservation of our history, BB is also a catchment area. Destroying it will have severe consequences. eg. flooding will increase triple fold. Im shocked that many people are not able to see this VERY IMPORTANT aspect given the WORLD CLASS education system we have here.

  • AWH

    SICC has 4 golf courses (5 if you count their Millenium course)- they CAN afford to give up some land. But our government would rather bully those who cannot talk back!

  • AWH

    SICC has 4 golf courses (5 if you count their Millenium course)- they CAN afford to give up some land. But our government would rather bully those who cannot talk back!

  • mice is nice

    when the green space above Orchard MRT was there for the many years, there was no flooding issue. but to our dear leaders, it may have been consider unproductive space, not doing "enough" to generate money to the coffers.
     
    Orchard Ion now sits atop that once green patch of land. & by coincidence, floods occured after it was built. if it is considered productive, then should people who suffered loses due to floods should go ahead & sue those responsible?
     
    if productivity brought things like floods, then it just seem so counterproductive now that govt is spending alot more to address the issue of flooding at Orchard Rd. penny wise pound foolish, or shortsighted?
     
    there is urban planning, plan to fail & fail to plan. for Orchard Road floods, it looks like which? so with Bukit Brown, will history repeat itself like Orchard Road? track record no good, naturally people will doubt, but the powers that be insist on doing it their way. dun want to listen, make mistake down the road, dun cry mother cry father (say people make noise). you deserve it!

  • mice is nice

    when the green space above Orchard MRT was there for the many years, there was no flooding issue. but to our dear leaders, it may have been consider unproductive space, not doing "enough" to generate money to the coffers.
     
    Orchard Ion now sits atop that once green patch of land. & by coincidence, floods occured after it was built. if it is considered productive, then should people who suffered loses due to floods should go ahead & sue those responsible?
     
    if productivity brought things like floods, then it just seem so counterproductive now that govt is spending alot more to address the issue of flooding at Orchard Rd. penny wise pound foolish, or shortsighted?
     
    there is urban planning, plan to fail & fail to plan. for Orchard Road floods, it looks like which? so with Bukit Brown, will history repeat itself like Orchard Road? track record no good, naturally people will doubt, but the powers that be insist on doing it their way. dun want to listen, make mistake down the road, dun cry mother cry father (say people make noise). you deserve it!

  • Last bet

    Those arguing for PAP or supporting PAP seem more & more of the less educated kind. 
     
    Survey the world's top University Professors, staff & students (exclude NUS & NTU), you will find that 99.99% will disagree to turn the precious BB cemetary into a 8-lane highway for many reasons esp in today's context.
     
    Sg Govt & PAP supporters are not only very short sighted, it is not in tune with the World!!!

  • Last bet

    Those arguing for PAP or supporting PAP seem more & more of the less educated kind. 
     
    Survey the world's top University Professors, staff & students (exclude NUS & NTU), you will find that 99.99% will disagree to turn the precious BB cemetary into a 8-lane highway for many reasons esp in today's context.
     
    Sg Govt & PAP supporters are not only very short sighted, it is not in tune with the World!!!

  • chanhk

    Look at the beautiful city of Paris…where there are hundreds of cemetries honouring all those who have given up their lives for their country…from Napoleon to Foreign Legions etc..nobody is building a road over them…at least they can RIP..

  • chanhk

    Look at the beautiful city of Paris…where there are hundreds of cemetries honouring all those who have given up their lives for their country…from Napoleon to Foreign Legions etc..nobody is building a road over them…at least they can RIP..

  • Barking vibkram nair DOG.

    To be fair, get some land from Bt. Brown and some land from SICC! Does Mr. Tan dare to do such a thing??? The gahmen dare not do anything to the rich and powerful. That's all we can say.

  • Barking vibkram nair DOG.

    To be fair, get some land from Bt. Brown and some land from SICC! Does Mr. Tan dare to do such a thing??? The gahmen dare not do anything to the rich and powerful. That's all we can say.

  • Damn

    It's so much more productive and viable to just have the motorway build at the golf course. There's no need for thousands of graves to be exhumed and a lot less digging. No need for the tremendous amount of documentation for the 5000 graves. Most of all, BB can stay intact. The miw never thought about that? That golf course is "untouchable"?

  • Damn

    It's so much more productive and viable to just have the motorway build at the golf course. There's no need for thousands of graves to be exhumed and a lot less digging. No need for the tremendous amount of documentation for the 5000 graves. Most of all, BB can stay intact. The miw never thought about that? That golf course is "untouchable"?

  • socrates

    Dont worry so much about the golf course. When the time is ripe to build something over it, the Government will do it. The time is not now.
    Look at what happen to Warren and Seletar and maybe Keepel Golf course next.
    This time round is Bukit Brown. So dont waste energy time and effort repeating old arguments.

  • socrates

    Dont worry so much about the golf course. When the time is ripe to build something over it, the Government will do it. The time is not now.
    Look at what happen to Warren and Seletar and maybe Keepel Golf course next.
    This time round is Bukit Brown. So dont waste energy time and effort repeating old arguments.

  • looes74

    Ok damn, I agree with you. we should stop having even one golf course in singapore

  • looes74

    Ok damn, I agree with you. we should stop having even one golf course in singapore

  • PAP Forever

    @have respect

    so when are you respecting my view that the dead are dead and stories of heaven and hell are fanciful? why are you preaching to me?

    religious and racial harmony means live and let live, it does not mean i have to respect nonsensical views such as “sure the dead don’t mind?”

    learn to respect the view that santa claus and its variations are silly, then you talk about respecting views.

    when superstition gets in the way of progress, that’s where a line needs to be drawn.

    and you avoided my question. what do you think ‘respectable’ organisations think of each others’ version of santa claus and heaven and hell?

    don’t talk about respect when you have trouble accepting that some people find religion silly.

  • PAP Forever

    @have respect

    so when are you respecting my view that the dead are dead and stories of heaven and hell are fanciful? why are you preaching to me?

    religious and racial harmony means live and let live, it does not mean i have to respect nonsensical views such as “sure the dead don’t mind?”

    learn to respect the view that santa claus and its variations are silly, then you talk about respecting views.

    when superstition gets in the way of progress, that’s where a line needs to be drawn.

    and you avoided my question. what do you think ‘respectable’ organisations think of each others’ version of santa claus and heaven and hell?

    don’t talk about respect when you have trouble accepting that some people find religion silly.

  • Scumbag ed

    You are a bunch of idiots censoring views that don't agree with the hogwash you write.
    Don't those who disagrees with you gets to have their views aired?
     

  • Scumbag ed

    You are a bunch of idiots censoring views that don't agree with the hogwash you write.
    Don't those who disagrees with you gets to have their views aired?
     

  • Jimmy

    .PAP Forever
    25 March 2012
     
    when superstition gets in the way of progress, that’s where a line needs to be drawn.
    ———————–
    What makes you think it is progress just because the word progress is conveniently mentioned. More cars equate to more pollution. More roads to absorb more cars & increasing travelling needs and more compact development to keep up with increasing population, albiet artificially for some of the population, hence more job needs means more concrete and loss of plenty of green and less open space which means less good air and its circulation. Well, this cycle is neverending and a line needs to be drawn also.
     
     
     
     
     
     

  • Jimmy

    .PAP Forever
    25 March 2012
     
    when superstition gets in the way of progress, that’s where a line needs to be drawn.
    ———————–
    What makes you think it is progress just because the word progress is conveniently mentioned. More cars equate to more pollution. More roads to absorb more cars & increasing travelling needs and more compact development to keep up with increasing population, albiet artificially for some of the population, hence more job needs means more concrete and loss of plenty of green and less open space which means less good air and its circulation. Well, this cycle is neverending and a line needs to be drawn also.
     
     
     
     
     
     

  • richmen

    These stupid Bukit Brown activists. Now end up building a viaduct that will cost 3 times as much as the original plan. Who pays for this? The taxpayers. This extra money could be used to help REAL PEOPLE ALIVE. Yet this BB activists wanted to fight for the graves of some rich men. Yah. How about the real poor still alive? Because these activists fight for the graves of rich men and their descendents, the real poor do not get the funding. Seriously, how many people know of BB? Rich men's graves are important and poor people not? It's not even a primary rainforest worth preserving. What hypocrites. The petition started by some ang moh and the mob follows blindly. Cost vs benefits. The rail corridor is worth conserving. But not a bunch of rich men's graves. Worship the rich so much issit?

  • richmen

    These stupid Bukit Brown activists. Now end up building a viaduct that will cost 3 times as much as the original plan. Who pays for this? The taxpayers. This extra money could be used to help REAL PEOPLE ALIVE. Yet this BB activists wanted to fight for the graves of some rich men. Yah. How about the real poor still alive? Because these activists fight for the graves of rich men and their descendents, the real poor do not get the funding. Seriously, how many people know of BB? Rich men's graves are important and poor people not? It's not even a primary rainforest worth preserving. What hypocrites. The petition started by some ang moh and the mob follows blindly. Cost vs benefits. The rail corridor is worth conserving. But not a bunch of rich men's graves. Worship the rich so much issit?

  • Jimmy

    richmen
    25 March 2012
     
    Seriously, how many people know of BB? Rich men's graves are important and poor people not? It's not even a primary rainforest worth preserving. What hypocrites.
    ———————
    It is to preserve whatever little we have left, even if it means a primary rainforest. 
     
    By the way, the rich men's preserves are the very developments that they are profiting and they need the neccesary infranstrurtural supports like roads, communication etc to complement the dynamics of their continuing ventures e.g fast connectivity from point-to-point. so as to reap further profit and calling for further development in the name of progress and demand.

  • Jimmy

    richmen
    25 March 2012
     
    Seriously, how many people know of BB? Rich men's graves are important and poor people not? It's not even a primary rainforest worth preserving. What hypocrites.
    ———————
    It is to preserve whatever little we have left, even if it means a primary rainforest. 
     
    By the way, the rich men's preserves are the very developments that they are profiting and they need the neccesary infranstrurtural supports like roads, communication etc to complement the dynamics of their continuing ventures e.g fast connectivity from point-to-point. so as to reap further profit and calling for further development in the name of progress and demand.

  • Get real

    So much effort to achieve absolutely nothing. Preserve what? Mosquitoe breeding ponds of singapore’s forgotten elite who profited from the ignorance and desperation of our immigrant ancestors?
    BB has no intrinsic historical , cultural or social merit.
    Sentimentality aside, I ask the advocates to prove otherwise.
    There are more pressing issues like the aging poor, people with special needs, education & understanding among raves would could better benefit from wasting taxpayers’ and ministerial time & resources.

  • Get real

    So much effort to achieve absolutely nothing. Preserve what? Mosquitoe breeding ponds of singapore’s forgotten elite who profited from the ignorance and desperation of our immigrant ancestors?
    BB has no intrinsic historical , cultural or social merit.
    Sentimentality aside, I ask the advocates to prove otherwise.
    There are more pressing issues like the aging poor, people with special needs, education & understanding among raves would could better benefit from wasting taxpayers’ and ministerial time & resources.

  • Get more real

    How would buiding the 8-laner help the "aging poor, pepople with special needs, education…"?  If anything, over the last 10 yrs of 'development', people got poorer.

  • Get more real

    How would buiding the 8-laner help the "aging poor, pepople with special needs, education…"?  If anything, over the last 10 yrs of 'development', people got poorer.

  • PAP Forever

    @jimmy

    you’re not being fair to my post. i do no necessarily disagree with your view. my statement that superstition should not stand in the way of progress pertains to the writer’s suggestion “sure the dead don’t mind?”

    next we’ll be talking about unicorns, ghosts and tooth fairies.

    you also fail to present the full picture of why the road is beng built, the surrounding area is being developed. it’s not building for the sake of building.

  • PAP Forever

    @jimmy

    you’re not being fair to my post. i do no necessarily disagree with your view. my statement that superstition should not stand in the way of progress pertains to the writer’s suggestion “sure the dead don’t mind?”

    next we’ll be talking about unicorns, ghosts and tooth fairies.

    you also fail to present the full picture of why the road is beng built, the surrounding area is being developed. it’s not building for the sake of building.

  • PAP Forever

    @get more real

    you should try staying through to your nick by not asking irrelevant ques. roads are for travel purposes. it has got nothing to do with people with special needs. indeed, get real.

  • PAP Forever

    @get more real

    you should try staying through to your nick by not asking irrelevant ques. roads are for travel purposes. it has got nothing to do with people with special needs. indeed, get real.

  • J

    @K 
    Yup, thanks for your point on physical preservation. I see your reason on how the presence of a tangible object is necessary to create a sense of ownership for future generations. 
    I agree with what you're saying about the need for ownership. I'm thinking along those same lines in considering alternative ways of preservation – by looking at creative ways to keep this resource alive, I am also facilitating ownership of this territory by ordinary citizens like you and me. E.g. if I have a sense of ownership for Bukit Brown, I would consider it my responsibility to document it as it is today (especially with the social media channels and technology that we have at our disposal); or, in becoming personally involved in documenting Bukit Brown, it becomes more important to me. Providing the infrastructure for active conservation could be even more important than preserving the resource as it is. 
    I'm not saying we should do away with Bukit Brown completely, but that we should get to the root of the matter. For me, the debate is primarily about how we can create that sense of ownership and engagement for this resource.
    Looking ahead, preserving the physical area is definitely one key consideration. I still think it might be unrealistic, even unnecessary, to preserve the entire area of Bukit Brown, not simply because Singapore has little land area, but because we as a society ought to be looking ahead.
    Another important consideration is how we can help to raise awareness of this resource and its importance to Singapore through institutionalized and informal channels of education. If we are able to find a healthy compromise that can keep our past alive while maintaining a forward-looking orientation, we will not only find a feasible way to keep our resources sustainable in the long term, but also make sustainability a way of life. 
    Thanks.  

  • J

    @K 
    Yup, thanks for your point on physical preservation. I see your reason on how the presence of a tangible object is necessary to create a sense of ownership for future generations. 
    I agree with what you're saying about the need for ownership. I'm thinking along those same lines in considering alternative ways of preservation – by looking at creative ways to keep this resource alive, I am also facilitating ownership of this territory by ordinary citizens like you and me. E.g. if I have a sense of ownership for Bukit Brown, I would consider it my responsibility to document it as it is today (especially with the social media channels and technology that we have at our disposal); or, in becoming personally involved in documenting Bukit Brown, it becomes more important to me. Providing the infrastructure for active conservation could be even more important than preserving the resource as it is. 
    I'm not saying we should do away with Bukit Brown completely, but that we should get to the root of the matter. For me, the debate is primarily about how we can create that sense of ownership and engagement for this resource.
    Looking ahead, preserving the physical area is definitely one key consideration. I still think it might be unrealistic, even unnecessary, to preserve the entire area of Bukit Brown, not simply because Singapore has little land area, but because we as a society ought to be looking ahead.
    Another important consideration is how we can help to raise awareness of this resource and its importance to Singapore through institutionalized and informal channels of education. If we are able to find a healthy compromise that can keep our past alive while maintaining a forward-looking orientation, we will not only find a feasible way to keep our resources sustainable in the long term, but also make sustainability a way of life. 
    Thanks.  

  • J

    @K 
    To clarify my earlier point, when I say that it's unnecessary to preserve "the entire area of Bukit Brown", I mean that it can still be preserved in part so that the memory of its existence is not completely lost 

  • J

    @K 
    To clarify my earlier point, when I say that it's unnecessary to preserve "the entire area of Bukit Brown", I mean that it can still be preserved in part so that the memory of its existence is not completely lost 

  • Jimmy

    PAP Forever
    26 March 2012

    next we’ll be talking about unicorns, ghosts and tooth fairies.

    you also fail to present the full picture of why the road is beng built, the surrounding area is being developed. it’s not building for the sake of building.
    —————————
    I try my best to steer away from religions & superstitions. It is sensitive and as much as you think them silly, those who believe in it will think you silly. And please, people are talking about their dead and their graves. So don't exaggerrate too much by extending it to unicorns, ghost, tooth fairies, santa claus. By the way, we do have some holidays to celebrate occasions of religious significance and they are there for a reason and police to control certain crowd e.g cheng meng.
     
    There are enough dividing fault lines already and we do not need another one in BB. My main concern is to preserve the area, the green which a contributor here calls it primary forest (rightly or wrongly).
    Since when there is lack of reason when something is being done just like  you have mentioned, not building for the sake of building. But has it occured to you how these problems of requiring more roads arise in the first place.
     
    Look at the way our country is moving, a lot of developments are already in place but somehow it is still not enough (they call it demand & progress) and the place is getting congested e.g the stretch along bedok reservoir is full of private residential developments (with more floors than the normal hdb flats there) and we know most of those purchasers there are most likely to be car owners. And the road there is only two-lane in each direction.

  • Jimmy

    PAP Forever
    26 March 2012

    next we’ll be talking about unicorns, ghosts and tooth fairies.

    you also fail to present the full picture of why the road is beng built, the surrounding area is being developed. it’s not building for the sake of building.
    —————————
    I try my best to steer away from religions & superstitions. It is sensitive and as much as you think them silly, those who believe in it will think you silly. And please, people are talking about their dead and their graves. So don't exaggerrate too much by extending it to unicorns, ghost, tooth fairies, santa claus. By the way, we do have some holidays to celebrate occasions of religious significance and they are there for a reason and police to control certain crowd e.g cheng meng.
     
    There are enough dividing fault lines already and we do not need another one in BB. My main concern is to preserve the area, the green which a contributor here calls it primary forest (rightly or wrongly).
    Since when there is lack of reason when something is being done just like  you have mentioned, not building for the sake of building. But has it occured to you how these problems of requiring more roads arise in the first place.
     
    Look at the way our country is moving, a lot of developments are already in place but somehow it is still not enough (they call it demand & progress) and the place is getting congested e.g the stretch along bedok reservoir is full of private residential developments (with more floors than the normal hdb flats there) and we know most of those purchasers there are most likely to be car owners. And the road there is only two-lane in each direction.

  • Angel Vision

    21st century
    —————–
     
    This century is focussed on quality and efficiency, not quantity and reckless speed.
     
    ☺ Green is the new Gold.  Build less live more! ☺

  • Angel Vision

    21st century
    —————–
     
    This century is focussed on quality and efficiency, not quantity and reckless speed.
     
    ☺ Green is the new Gold.  Build less live more! ☺

  • BB Antiactivists

    It's NOT a primary forest. Just overgrown grass. this place has no intrinsic value to our heritage. Taking away a part of it to build a road that benefits millions is the right thing to do. How does a road benefit the people? Some may ask? Of course it does. It allows people to get to places faster, including the aged to get to the hospital etc. How does preserving the rich men's graves benefit anyone? And not all the graves are exhumed right? Just some of them. And the article says the graves are like angkor wat? Don't make me laugh. This place has no value from a nature or a heritage standpoint. Its a waste of too much taxpayers resources to spend so much time harping about a place the general populace don't know or care anything about. So much hypocrisy in this BB saga and people acting noble about how much BB mean to these people and how Singapore suddenly lose identity because some graves were exhumed. Lose identity because of rich man's graves? Singaporeans are NOT that shallow.

  • BB Antiactivists

    It's NOT a primary forest. Just overgrown grass. this place has no intrinsic value to our heritage. Taking away a part of it to build a road that benefits millions is the right thing to do. How does a road benefit the people? Some may ask? Of course it does. It allows people to get to places faster, including the aged to get to the hospital etc. How does preserving the rich men's graves benefit anyone? And not all the graves are exhumed right? Just some of them. And the article says the graves are like angkor wat? Don't make me laugh. This place has no value from a nature or a heritage standpoint. Its a waste of too much taxpayers resources to spend so much time harping about a place the general populace don't know or care anything about. So much hypocrisy in this BB saga and people acting noble about how much BB mean to these people and how Singapore suddenly lose identity because some graves were exhumed. Lose identity because of rich man's graves? Singaporeans are NOT that shallow.

  • K

    @ J
    No one is preventing anyone from documenting BB. Sure, but can it be done while at the same time keeping BB as it is.
     
    Can society move forward & still create that sense of ownership and engagement for this resource by keeping BB as it is. Could this be a good compromise.

  • K

    @ J
    No one is preventing anyone from documenting BB. Sure, but can it be done while at the same time keeping BB as it is.
     
    Can society move forward & still create that sense of ownership and engagement for this resource by keeping BB as it is. Could this be a good compromise.

  • PAP Forever

    @jimmy

    1. i have already clarified that my remarks were in response to the statement “sure the dead don’t mind?” and this is the same as believing in fairies and unicorns.

    2. indeed, we’re talking about dead bodies which are presently in the way of development. so just move them. i am insensitive only insofar that some people don’t understand the meaning of have problems coming to terms with a dead person.

    3. i have no issue with people who believe in flying carpets and unicorns thinking i’m silly. but hey seem to have a problem with me thinking they’re silly.

    4. perhaps we can preserve the greenary .

  • PAP Forever

    @jimmy

    1. i have already clarified that my remarks were in response to the statement “sure the dead don’t mind?” and this is the same as believing in fairies and unicorns.

    2. indeed, we’re talking about dead bodies which are presently in the way of development. so just move them. i am insensitive only insofar that some people don’t understand the meaning of have problems coming to terms with a dead person.

    3. i have no issue with people who believe in flying carpets and unicorns thinking i’m silly. but hey seem to have a problem with me thinking they’re silly.

    4. perhaps we can preserve the greenary .

  • 坡仔哥哥

    The Lesson which we need to Learn from the whole Bukit Brown Affair is this …
    1. When did URA, MND planned all this (how many years back?) w/o public consultation ? 
    2. What else is in the pipe line now which is not being publicly discuss which may create more unhappiness in the future. 
     
    There is NOTHING we can do about Bukit Brown anymore – the gahmen already decided and wants everyone to move on ! Anyway, who cares? next election is still a good 4 years away ! :-)
    Issue is WHAT DO WE NOT KNOW NOW WHICH U ARE NOT Telling Us ? 
    Please understand that the ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY reason that Tan Chuan Jin cannot do much except to ask everyone to move on – is that ALL the Planning and Execution has already been done and Any Changes will derail years of planning and messy meetings. 
    U have got to ask yourself … what else do I NOT know NOW ? After Bukit Brown that is….

  • 坡仔哥哥

    The Lesson which we need to Learn from the whole Bukit Brown Affair is this …
    1. When did URA, MND planned all this (how many years back?) w/o public consultation ? 
    2. What else is in the pipe line now which is not being publicly discuss which may create more unhappiness in the future. 
     
    There is NOTHING we can do about Bukit Brown anymore – the gahmen already decided and wants everyone to move on ! Anyway, who cares? next election is still a good 4 years away ! :-)
    Issue is WHAT DO WE NOT KNOW NOW WHICH U ARE NOT Telling Us ? 
    Please understand that the ONLY ONLY ONLY ONLY reason that Tan Chuan Jin cannot do much except to ask everyone to move on – is that ALL the Planning and Execution has already been done and Any Changes will derail years of planning and messy meetings. 
    U have got to ask yourself … what else do I NOT know NOW ? After Bukit Brown that is….

  • King of 2 faces

    ANother myth: Singaporeans care about Bukit Brown. How many Singaporeans actually went there over the last 10 years… Have you been there? No. Only remember it exist when the government talks about it.

  • King of 2 faces

    ANother myth: Singaporeans care about Bukit Brown. How many Singaporeans actually went there over the last 10 years… Have you been there? No. Only remember it exist when the government talks about it.

  • Traveller

    Nature lovers and history buffs (both of which I count myself one) face the danger of losing their credibiltiy if they fight every case of development. We cannot look at other big cities like Paris or NY for comparison. Preservation wouldn't be an issue if we were that big. Please have a sense of proportion and consider that there are other stakeholders in this land we call home.  

  • Traveller

    Nature lovers and history buffs (both of which I count myself one) face the danger of losing their credibiltiy if they fight every case of development. We cannot look at other big cities like Paris or NY for comparison. Preservation wouldn't be an issue if we were that big. Please have a sense of proportion and consider that there are other stakeholders in this land we call home.  

  • mice is nice

    Traveller,
     
    there are stakeholders in SICC who could have volunteered to give up part of their playground…
     
    & technically speaking, road widening is less costly & less time consuming. land clearing on existing road means there is no need to build a service road from scratch.

  • mice is nice

    Traveller,
     
    there are stakeholders in SICC who could have volunteered to give up part of their playground…
     
    & technically speaking, road widening is less costly & less time consuming. land clearing on existing road means there is no need to build a service road from scratch.

  • Am not the stupid 60%

    Yes, what about land for international schools too? Paris & NY don't build such to cater specially for foreigners children inspite of their relatively more land.  Sg is small and yet we welcome foreigners and their children and build facilities for them.  What logic is that?  You are going to say because they are talent. So is our Sg education really world class?  Like someone's nick, its all 'loadda bull'.

  • Am not the stupid 60%

    Yes, what about land for international schools too? Paris & NY don't build such to cater specially for foreigners children inspite of their relatively more land.  Sg is small and yet we welcome foreigners and their children and build facilities for them.  What logic is that?  You are going to say because they are talent. So is our Sg education really world class?  Like someone's nick, its all 'loadda bull'.

  • Chippie

    COMPROMISE!!!! Both sides of the debate has it’s merits, as with most arguments go. My 2.14 cents worth of opinion, including GST, is

    1) confirm preservation of part of, say 30% of BB, under some historical act or similar by parliament, and reLy PRESERVE, not just let it rot.

    2) convert the said 30% into a walkable cemetery cum park.

    3) govt to use Land Acquisition Act to acquire tracts of land from SICC for the said road expansion project.

    4) scrap the money wasting viaduct idea, and use the funds for that to preserve and maintain what’s left of BB, even build a educational/historical centre nearby.

    Thanks,

    Chip

  • Chippie

    COMPROMISE!!!! Both sides of the debate has it’s merits, as with most arguments go. My 2.14 cents worth of opinion, including GST, is

    1) confirm preservation of part of, say 30% of BB, under some historical act or similar by parliament, and reLy PRESERVE, not just let it rot.

    2) convert the said 30% into a walkable cemetery cum park.

    3) govt to use Land Acquisition Act to acquire tracts of land from SICC for the said road expansion project.

    4) scrap the money wasting viaduct idea, and use the funds for that to preserve and maintain what’s left of BB, even build a educational/historical centre nearby.

    Thanks,

    Chip

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